White Lies recorded their new album Night Light largely live, drawing on years of shared experience and a renewed focus on performance over perfection. In conversation, Charles Cave and Jack Lawrence-Brown talk about recording together in real time, the role of lyrics, and how songs like «All The Best» continue to evolve on stage night after night.
White Lies are:
Harry McVeigh (vocals, guitar)
Charles Cave (bass)
Jack Lawrence-Brown (drums)
Indiespect: You weren’t born in the 1970s – what was it about the music of that era that drew you to it, and how did that influence the way you approached recording Night Light?
Charles Cave: I think it was a time in music that feels quite far removed from where we’re at now, because the main focus of recorded music really was great performance and capturing that performance in an authentic, honest way. It was still sort of pre-technology in the sense that you couldn’t easily cut things up and make everything perfect. That really came in during the 1980s, and that was attractive in its own way as well.
But for us, at this point in our career, we’d fallen into a habit over six albums where writing, recording and playing live were treated as quite separate things. We’d go into a studio, piece things together very slowly and precisely, and then go out and play, play, play. We reached a point where we thought it would be really nice to do it all at the same time again. That felt like how we should be making records now, using the skills we’ve spent 17 years refining just by touring and playing shows. So I think that’s the main way the 1970s influenced us.
If it felt right but wasn’t flawless, we’d keep it.
Indiespect: So on one hand, I assume recording live is easier than the other way round.
Charles Cave: Quicker, for sure.
Indiespect: What are the challenges of working in that way?
Jack Lawrence-Brown: With recording live, it’s not like we went into the studio without rehearsing. A big part of the pre-production was actually just playing together in a room for about two weeks before we went into the studio, rather than going over the songs endlessly in a technical way. So we felt confident when it came to laying things down.
That said, there’s always an element of risk with performing live. You need all three or four people involved to get it right at the same time. But we were also very conscious of not polishing things too much. If a take had a great vibe, we weren’t going to do endless takes just to make it perfect. If it felt right but wasn’t flawless, we’d keep it. We stayed very true to that concept.
We only had about ten days in the studio, and it was a very posh studio, so we didn’t have a huge amount of time. We had to condense everything into a few days of tracking together and see how far we could get. I actually think we did really well, which is a strange thing to say, because we’ve been doing this for a long time and you’d expect us to be able to do it. But we weren’t completely sure until we actually did it.
One of the biggest dangers in a studio like that is the sheer amount of incredible equipment available. You can easily disappear down a rabbit hole of messing around with expensive pedals if you’re not focused. But we were quite focused, and I think we really made the most of the space. It was a very nice place to work.
White Lies (from left to right): Charles Cave, Harry McVeigh, Jack Lawrence-Brown
Indiespect: It’s called The Church, right? What’s this place like? Is it a real church?
Charles Cave: Yeah, it is. I mean, it’s obviously been heavily modified over the years, but it’s still a very tall room, like churches usually are. The walls are treated with more acoustically friendly materials now. It doesn’t really feel like a church inside anymore – it’s not over the top. You’re aware of the structure, the size and the shape, but you don’t actually feel like you’re in a church.
Paul Epworth has owned it for quite a few years now, and a lot of records have been made there. I think Adele has recorded there, and possibly a couple of Arctic Monkeys records. Those are very boring references, I know, but there’s obviously been a lot of interesting music made there as well. It was a really cool place.
It’s actually very hard for the people who aren’t actively playing or recording to stay focused.
Indiespect: Is that a critique of those artists?
Charles Cave: No, not at all. My point is just that very great and interesting records have been made there, often with Paul, who’s a hugely successful producer. We loved it and would go back there in a flash.
Another really nice thing about working that way is that everyone is needed at the same time. When you make a record in the more conventional way, like we’ve done before, there can be whole days where you’re only focusing on one thing – just drums, or just vocals.
And it’s actually very hard for the people who aren’t actively playing or recording to stay focused. Even when you’re listening to Harry doing vocal takes, if you have to do that for three or four days straight, you’re just sitting there thinking, Oh God… I think that was good? That sounded good? Did that sound good? And you’re supposed to be listening to every single syllable, which is really hard.
So all of us being active, playing and bouncing ideas off each other in real time felt like a genuinely healthy thing for creativity.
© Jack Lawrence-Brown via White Lies Instagram
During the «Night Light» session
Indiespect: For «Friends», you basically did all the work on the album yourselves. Was that a forced decision back then?
Jack Lawrence-Brown: I think it was more about opportunity. We were between labels, and we had the budget to do it ourselves. We wanted to see how it would turn out.
Indiespect: So you know how to do it, but decided to work with a producer again. What’s the advantage for you as a band?
Charles Cave: We like working with producers who are very musical themselves. We’re confident that there are lots of people who could just make it sound good on a technical level. But we want to work with people who will actively influence the music.
That might mean suggesting a different chord or melody, or saying, What if this part went like this? It’s about making tangible creative decisions – swapping a snare drum, changing pedals, rethinking keyboard sounds. It’s not just technical, it’s genuinely creative.
We like working with producers who are very musical themselves.
Indiespect: For example, the acoustic guitar on «Night Light»?
Jack Lawrence-Brown: That song was actually quite tricky for us to finish and play together.
Charles Cave: The demo didn’t really have any of the acoustic elements.
Jack Lawrence-Brown: It had a little drum machine, maybe a piano – I can’t quite remember. But there’s quite a bit of acoustic guitar on this record, and it’s a sound you naturally lean into more as you get into your mid-thirties. It’s very gentle and tasteful.
It’s also been a really nice part of the live show. Having an acoustic guitar on stage for a couple of songs gives everyone a bit of a break from all the amplified, distorted noise of a rock show. For me, it feels refreshing to play something different.
Charles Cave: Yeah, it’s a rest – a gentle antidote.
«Nothing On Me» is the opening track of the new album.
Indiespect: How does lyric writing work in White Lies these days? Is it still mostly you, Charles?
Charles Cave: On this album, I did write all the lyrics. It was really only on the previous one, which we made during the pandemic, that things were different. For at least the first year, Harry and I weren’t really able to meet up properly. Because of that, there were a couple of songs where he’d come up with lyrics at home on his own, which made complete sense at the time. He was basically like, I’ve got to sing something.
Those were Step Outside on the last album and a bonus track called Break Down Days. Apart from that, I’m not territorial about lyrics at all – I’m generally open to whatever works. It’s just that writing words is still the part of the process where something starts to feel quite real for me. I don’t want to say I find it easy, but it does come fairly naturally, and I don’t really stress about it.
For me, because we’re essentially working in pop music, a piece of music is still just nice chords until there’s something sung. Harry would probably argue that he can often get really excited by instrumental music on its own. I’m maybe a bit old-fashioned in that sense, but for me it’s not quite there until there are words.
For me, because we’re essentially working in pop music, a piece of music is still just nice chords until there’s something sung.
Indiespect: That’s interesting, because for people who aren’t native English speakers, songs are often felt through mood and melody first, and only later through the lyrics. Do you experience music that way yourselves?
Jack Lawrence-Brown: I think it’s very different for most people. You can’t really imagine a songwriter like Laura Marling, for example, not starting with lyrics. With acoustic artists especially, they’re usually going to write the lyrics first and then build a song around them.
We tend to work slightly backwards. And I think a lot of that comes down to how and where we were working. On this album, we spent a lot of time working at Harry’s house. There were days when it was just Charles and Harry, days when all three of us were there, and days when it was just me and Harry. Depending on who’s in the room, it really changes what the focus is.
If Charles is there, it’s more likely that we’ll start getting some lyrics quite early and build the song around that. If it’s just me and Harry, it’s more likely that we’ll be working on a bunch of music, and then Harry will stick some lyrics about aliens on top of it for a few days, until Charles comes in to rescue us.
Jack Lawrence-Brown in the studio.
© White Lies Instagram
Indiespect: But you wouldn’t say that growing up with English makes it fundamentally different for you?
Charles Cave: No, not at all. Even native speakers don’t necessarily know all the lyrics. My fiancée was saying the other day that she loves singing along but definitely gets half the words wrong. And that’s fine – it’s music.
Lyrics can be poetic, but they’re not poetry. We’re making melodic popular music. What matters most is that it’s engaging to listen to. Sometimes the meaning hits you immediately, sometimes it takes longer, and sometimes it never does. That’s okay.
What I think is important is that the meaning of the words should never completely dominate, or sabotage, the idea of catchiness and musicality. I was thinking about this the other day because my partner said to me, By the way, I don’t actually know what those lyrics are.
And I thought about our song There Goes Our Love Again. The chorus is technically just I didn’t go far, I didn’t go far, and I came home. I remember writing that and thinking it just sounded really musical and nice to say – I didn’t go far. It’s kind of nonsense. I mean, it is words and it does make sense within the song, but more than anything it’s just a really nice sound to make with your mouth.
And that’s such a big part of pop music.
I sometimes think non-native English speakers actually read more into English lyrics. They sit down and study them.
Most English people don’t do that.
Jack Lawrence-Brown: It’s like that Killers lyric: I’ve got soul, but I’m not a soldier – It’s pretty silly.
Indiespect: And he sings it for ten minutes on stage.
Jack Lawrence-Brown: Exactly! I sometimes wonder if non-native English speakers actually read much more into lyrics in English. Because if you really think about it, sitting down and properly reading through a lyric sheet is something most English people just don’t do. You’re hearing the words as the song goes by – some of them go in, some of them don’t.
But a lot of fans we meet in other countries really study the lyrics. They actually sit down, read them properly and then take meaning from them. Whereas I’d suspect that UK fans, in general, are probably much less likely to engage with lyrics in that way.
Charles Cave just liked the sound of the words «I didn't go far» and used them for the song «There Goes Our Love Again»
Indiespect: Which song from the new album has been the most fun to play live on the current tour?
Charles Cave: Probably All The Best. It’s the one that really feels like it has the most room to evolve from night to night. There’s a lot of space to slightly change things each time. For example, the second verse of the song – compared to the recording – is much more subdued and gentler when we play it live than the first verse. And every night we seem to take that to a different place. Some nights we play it really quietly, almost as if we’re barely playing at all, just letting Harry sing. Other nights that doesn’t quite feel right – the room feels more lively, the audience has more energy – so we don’t lean into that softness as much. It just feels very open. And it’s nice that it’s the first song of the set, because it puts us all in a very playful, collaborative headspace straight away. It never feels locked in or too regimented, there’s room to move.
Jack Lawrence-Brown: Yeah, it’s a great loosener. It’s a really nice way to start the show. It’s not crazy fast or anything like that. You can sit back for a few minutes, find your groove, and then attack the rest of the show afterwards. It’s just a really good song to open with.
Our producer Ed Buller always wanted us to do a Bond theme. It could be fun, although our orchestral tendencies might be gone now.
Indiespect: If you could write the soundtrack for a film or a TV series, is there a particular one you’d love to work on?
Charles Cave: If we did it as a band, I think it would be fun to do it under a different name — writing as another band entirely. Something very specific. Stranger Things would obviously make sense, but I also loved the first two seasons of Mindhunter. They were set in the 1970s, so that could be really interesting. But it seems like they’ll never do a third one.
Indiespect: Maybe they’re waiting for you to approach them.
Charles Cave: Maybe that’s exactly what’s happening.
James Bond and villain in one – White Lies could write a great bond theme.
Jack Lawrence-Brown: Our producer Ed Buller always wanted us to do a Bond theme. It could be fun, although our orchestral tendencies might be gone now. There hasn’t been a really good one in years.
Indiespect: Adele bashing again?
Charles Cave: No, hers was actually one of the better ones. Sam Smith’s was just, phew, awful. What was the last one?
Indiespect: No Time To Die by Billie Eilish.
Jack Lawrence-Brown: That was bad as well – and she’s so good.
Charles Cave: She really wasted that opportunity.
Indiespect: Did you know Radiohead got rejected when they sent in a song for Spectre?
Charles Cave: Yes, true. They said it was too much of a…
Jack Lawrence-Brown: …of a Radiohead song?.
Indiespect: …and then they chose Sam Smith.
Jack Lawrence-Brown: Oh, fuck it out. That’s a shocker.