Freya Ridings wrote «Mother of Pearl» by trusting her instincts over outside expectations, even when it meant going against strong industry opinions. In conversation, she reflects on the importance of staying authentic, her songwriting process between voice memos and pen and paper, and how personal experiences shape the sound and direction of her music.
Indiespect: «Mother Of Pearl feels» like a very different record compared to «Blood Orange». You went through a lot to get to the point where you are now. Which decision you made between the two albums are you most proud of?
Freya Ridings: That’s such a lovely question. I’m very good at doing what I’m told and working as a team, which I didn’t used to be. I used to be a little rebel before I started doing this job. Then when stuff starts going well, you start listening to people’s opinions and sort of agreeing with everyone. So the proudest moment for me making this album was that someone, who should not be named, told me not to get on a plane and not work with this female producer who I’ve loved for years. I’ve been a massive fan of Jen Desilvio, and I didn’t even know she wanted to work with me, they hadn’t told me. This moment where I bought the ticket on my own. I got on the plane, and I just went. I’ve honestly never done anything like that in my life. It was the changing moment of everything. That became the catalyst for the sound of the album. She did a lot on the last Hozier album and she’s worked with a lot of incredible artists in that indie-rock world that I love, with that cinematic undertone. So for me, the proudest moment was not listening to someone, getting on the plane, and doing it anyway.
Freya Ridings releases her third album «Mother Of Pearl»
Indiespect: But was it a hard decision in that moment?
Freya Ridings: Oh, it was really hard, yeah, because in that moment I was actually going against a lot of people who really, really were quite strong with their opinions. At the same time, especially when you’re in a record deal, there are some people really championing you – like Jamie Nelson at BMG. He’s been my champion and fighting for what I want to do the whole time. And then there were people in the industry who shall not be named who were trying to stop me with everything they had. So it was so weird to be in between that space. The thing that made me proud was that I listened to my gut over my head, and I just knew that we would make incredible music together. Without that, the album wouldn’t have had a cohesive world.
The thing that made me proud was that I listened to my gut over my head
Indiespect: It’s sad, because music always starts with passion and then you get into an industry that is mainly focused on numbers and money.
Freya Ridings: I think there are those people in the industry. I hadn’t really worked with them up until that point, so I didn’t understand what was happening. I was like, well, obviously I should listen to my gut. But they were like, no, it doesn’t work. And it does work. It’s the whole point of the music. Ironically, that’s the thing that connects with the fans, and with other artists and producers, and anyone in the creative world understands it. But you’re right, on the business side of things, people can be quite harsh sometimes.
Indiespect: The title «Mother Of Pearl» is more than just an album title. Pearls are formed as a defense mechanism when an oyster is irritated by a parasite that enters its shell and damages it. You’ve also had to deal with external influences, and a musical pearl came out of that. Or am I reading too much into it?
Freya Ridings: No, not at all. That’s a perfect deep dive into the symbolism. I wrote this song on the album called Dancing in the Kitchen, which is going to be the next single and is one of my favourite songs on the album, maybe my second favourite. The song starts with, ‘Mama says it’s the grit that makes the pearl,’ and that’s a phrase my mum used to say growing up. Ironically, I’d written that song years before Mother of Pearl, but it had kind of been in the ether. For me this album feels very water-based – there’s depth and grief and a kind of family love. And the word mother and of pearl tied it together for me. You’re right: the moments where you need to find the grit within yourself can grow something really beautiful. But I found it really hard. It was not easy.
- Euphoria
- Wild Horse
- I Have Always Loved You
- Dancing In The Kitchen
- Undefeated
- R U OK?
- Battleship
- Wicker Woman
- Mother Of Pearl
- If This Is A Dream
- Strength In Me
Indiespect: That’s tricky. The best art often gets created out of these situations, but you don’t go looking for them. Do you need to have those situations in order to be creative?
Freya Ridings: It’s weird – I do. Sometimes the pain makes the beauty. I don’t love that but I’m quite a melancholic person, and growing up, music was where I turned to make something beautiful instead of just sitting in the feeling. It became something bigger than me. And that’s why I still love it so much. Because you can take pain, or longing for something or someone, and turn it into something beautiful that helps connect with other people.
I literally didn’t have a voice, which is so ironic because now my whole job is having a voice.
Indiespect: In the beginning you were also quite shy, I read that you did open mics and learned there that people were really listening to you. But how did you decide to go there in the first place? That must have been a huge leap.
Freya Ridings: For sure. I was so shy at school I literally didn’t speak. I literally didn’t have a voice, which is so ironic because now my whole job is having a voice. But at school I didn’t really say anything. I had very few friends throughout school. I struggled to speak and connect with people. I was cripplingly shy, and I was so close with my family at home, so music was the thing I did at home. Then I walked past this poster at school that said open mic night. I didn’t know what that was, but I just thought, I think I should go. It was like a cosmic pull towards that. I was 11 and everyone else was in sixth form, like 17 or 18, and they were saying, ‘Are you sure you want to do this?’ and I was like, yeah. I was really shy and I kept my coat on the whole time I was on stage. I played guitar, my family came, and their jaws just dropped because they knew how scared and shy I was of people. It was like a moment where my true self came out in the world. At 11 years old it was like a lightning-bolt moment. It just hit me in the chest, and I realized this is my thing. The whole audience erupted and I was just like, oh my God. I played a song I wrote at home and loved it.
Indiespect: Like a superhero evolution
Freya Ridings: It was (laughs). When they take of their glasses. Then afterwards I kind of went back to being that shy girl that no one thought was cool and felt like: oh. It was hard. But I kept writing in the piano room at lunchtime. Any moment I could get I was just writing, from the age of 11.
Freya Ridings performing solo in Zurich.
Indiespect: So on stage you were confident, and off stage you were still shy?
Freya Ridings: Yeah, cripplingly shy. It’s kind of still true, but I’m getting better. I think the more confident you get as you grow up. I’m in my 30s now, it’s different. But those awkward teenage years when you can’t say what you think to people – you can put it into a song, and then that’s real.
Indiespect: I always have the feeling that if songs have meaning, that’s really powerful, almost like a therapy. Often your songs are really sad. But because fans love them so much they could turn into something else. Over time, when you perform them, even though the topic was harsh for you, does that feeling change?
Freya Ridings: For sure. Especially songs like Lost Without You and Castles, they were written in such painful moments. To then see them become this euphoric thing, where people use them at weddings or funerals or these huge moments of their lives, is such a humbling experience because I didn’t write them for that and I didn’t know that would happen. It’s almost like my pain and their pain saw something in each other. To walk out on stage to people you’ve never met before and have this huge thing in common is such a beautiful way of connecting with people, and that was something I found really hard in the past. With Castles, I was so angry and solitary when I wrote it, and then later you see little girls up on their dads’ shoulders at festivals and thousands of people as far back as you can see. I remember the moment where I was broken up with and sad and crying on the walk home, thinking I’m going to turn this into something beautiful, I’m going to write Castles. And then to see all those girls on their dads’ shoulders, I was like ‘oh my god, this is so cool’. You never fully forget the original moment. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don’t, but it can take you back there.
I remember the moment where I was broken up with and sad and crying on the walk home,
thinking I’m going to turn this into something beautiful, I’m going to write Castles.
Indiespect: You talked about how important the producer is. I can imagine especially for songwriters like you with such personal lyrics. What do producers need to be able to add to your songs, or how do they need to work?
Freya Ridings: It’s like dating. I was put in a lot of sessions with people who really wanted to write the song for me, and I was just like, that’s not who I am. I have to write – especially the lyrics – every single word has to be true, especially if I’m singing it. If someone else is singing, then sure, let’s all collaborate, but if I’m the one on stage, it has to be true to me. So for me, finding a producer who is really calm is important, because I get quite nervous in studios. Being on stage in front of tens of thousands of people doesn’t even vaguely worry me. In a studio I can be panicking because the songs get set in stone there and then that’s it. So, it’s important to find people who are calm, funny, sweet – just kind. I genuinely think there are producers who think being mean is cool or that making you cry gets the best out of you, and I’m just like, no, that’s abuse. I look back now and think, what was that? That was mental. I also think it helps finding people who are at the same stage of life as you. If someone is much older or much younger, you’re not really in the same headspace. There are people like Jen Desilvio, or Sam de Jong, who I did Wild Horse with. He’s done a lot with Gracie Abrams and he’s just such a calm, lovely man. And then there was also Adam Yaron, I did Mother of Pearl, the song, with him. He produced it. He was so kind, and he just had this aura and energy of someone who was going to do great things, and I just knew it. When I met him I was like, this is imminent – and then he did Ordinary with Alex Warren. That’s the beautiful thing about LA: there’s such an incredible abundance of successful producers that you can find people you actually connect with. In the UK there is less.
«Castles» turned from anger and solitary into something beautiful
Indiespect: Do you find those producers by listening to other music? You mentioned Hozier, for example.
Freya Ridings: Yes. You kind of have a wish list of people you’d want to work with. Some of them are too big, some of them are too small, and then you find the sweet spot where the label goes yes, and you go yes. But it took a while. It’s a lot of frogs to kiss.
Indiespect: How many producers worked on this album?
Freya Ridings: It’s not too many. I think probably around four or five. It’s 11 tracks on the album and around two per person. It kind of evens out.
When there’s no one else on stage with you, you can flow and adapt and change.
Indiespect: Before your solo show in Zurich, which feels very close to how you write, I wanted to ask: when you go on tour with a full band and also do solo shows, do you arrange the songs on your own, or how does that work?
Freya Ridings: Yeah, I work with musical directors and stuff. But because so many of the songs were written just me at the piano, getting to do shows like the night in Zurich really excites me, because I’m remembering that connection. When there’s no one else on stage with you, you can flow and adapt and change. You can feel what the audience is feeling and adapt as you go, which is so fun and so powerful, and you get these really special moments. When it’s more in the pop world, it can sound bigger out of the speakers, but it’s not always as fun. When we come back at the end of the year for the proper tour, I want it to have a stripped-back feeling with organic elements, while still reaching the size of the music, because some of the songs are quite cinematic. I want to find a way to translate that, but maybe with less people.
For Freya Riding it's powerful to play on her own becaus she can flow and adapt.
Indiespect: I assume it’s the same with the whole stage feeling of your music, because you want it to stay organic and not become generic pop.
Freya Ridings: This is the thing. I’m not gonna lie. When I was breaking as an artist, songs like Lost Without You and Castles were very organic. Then along the way you get pressured to be a little more pop than you want to be, and I feel kind of bad that I listened to any of it because that’s just not who I am. I’m an indie girl at heart – a dark indie girl – and I’m excited to go back there. I think that’s what the fans love about me, and it’s what I love about doing this. Once all the middlemen kind of go away, you get back to the connection you once had.
Indiespect: You also shared quite a lot of cover songs on your YouTube channel. You added your own flavor to all of them. How did you choose the songs to cover? Was it always because the lyrics touched you?
Freya Ridings: I used to play covers a lot to learn how to write songs and to practise. But in a strange way, I actually can’t sing a song if I don’t want to. Something happens in my brain, I have to really resonate with the lyrics to want to sing a song. It’s almost like Pokémon: they have to choose you back. You don’t just choose them, they choose you. Some songs are just too beautiful not to cover. Like Drivers License by Olivia Rodrigo, or Exile, a Taylor Swift cover I did, that I just loved. I think she reposted it, which was so cool. Some songs just transcend. You can’t not cover them because they’re so beautiful.
Some songs you can't not cover, because they are so beautiful.
Indiespect: When you write songs, do you keep a song diary all the time, where you write down things?
Freya Ridings: It’s a really good point, Christian. I probably should keep more of a diary. I use my Notes app a lot, and voice memos are really my thing. I’ll sit down at the piano, shut my eyes, and do a voice memo for like 25 minutes, just stream of consciousness. Then the next day I let it sink in, I go on a walk around my local park, and I listen back almost like a listener, looking for melodies or moments of truth where I kind of lost myself in it and something feels really strong. Then I go back and refine and think, is there a title in that, or a title I’ve been dreaming about that fits with this?
Indiespect: And do you sometimes have to wait a long time until the parts come together - or do you let an idea go if it takes too long?
Freya Ridings: I actually had a massive breakthrough while writing this album. Speaking of voice memos, I stopped using them for a bit because I was thinking, in the olden days, not too long ago, when people used to write, they didn’t have recording technology. So how did they remember songs? They had to be really good. Do you know what I mean?
When the pen hit the paper, I had to finish the song in that session, and I wasn’t allowed to record it until I had finished it.
Indiespect: I think that’s what Paul McCartney always says.
Freya Ridings: That’s what I’m saying. Paul McCartney and John Lennon weren’t sitting there with voice memos going back again and again. If a melody was strong enough for them both to remember it, then they remembered it. So I set myself a challenge, especially with the song Mother of Pearl. I knew I had that title and I bought this big thick pack of parchment paper, and every page was going to be a song. But I had to finish it when I started. When the pen hit the paper, I had to finish the song in that session, and I wasn’t allowed to record it until I had finished it, which was so difficult. But ironically that limitation helped so much, it made it either there or it’s not. It made the song come out in one go instead of saying, ‘I’ll come back and finish that later.’ There might not be a later. This is the flow, get it while it’s there, grab the authenticity, and move on to something else. It was like writing in the past.
Indiespect: It must be frightening because you think «oh no, maybe I lose an idea that would be amazing.»
Freya Ridings: The melodies have to be simpler and more memorable, almost like a nursery rhyme or lullaby. It’s so easy to overcomplicate things when you have anything under the sun you could write about and any instrument you could use. It’s like ‘no’. Pen, paper, piano - what can you do? I actually like the limitations. I think that’s how I wrote my best songs before. When I was not able to record them before I had written them.
Freya Ridings is stronger than ever before.
Indiespect: Almost every music lover has certain albums that are really precious to them. Do you also have records like that?
Freya Ridings: There are. I feel like I’m getting better at listening to full albums again. My new thing is to go on a big walk every day and listen to the album of the day, whether that’s James Blake’s new album, which is incredible or Arlo Parks who I love. That’s in the sense of modern music, but I think voices of the past are what I gravitate to most. I love really deep-diving into Nina Simone, Etta James, Aretha Franklin. These women’s voices that are just indomitable. I grew up being obsessed with The Blues Brothers, and especially Aretha Franklin in The Blues Brothers. I was just in awe of her, her voice and her power. I was like five years old, watching this film with so many swear words in it. My parents knew I loved the music. My Pocahontas was The Blues Brothers, I wasn’t allowed to watch Disney movies, so that’s what I watched instead. And then of course there are albums like Fleetwood Mac’s Rumours that just transcend time. A more modern one I love is Hozier’s Wasteland, Baby! – although it’s always a bit of melancholy there for me. I was supposed to support him on that tour and it clashed with my own tour, so I didn’t get to do it. When I listen to that it’s always ‘Freya, you could’ve had the best time’. But it’s such a beautiful album and I love it.
To think maybe there are little girls who heard my first album and are teenagers now for this one,
and maybe they could imprint on it. That would be so nice.
Indiespect: I have the feeling that the most precious albums are often linked to a certain moment in your life. Maybe when you’re younger they imprint on you more strongly.
Freya Ridings: I heard somewhere that from about 15 to 25 is when you imprint on music the most, and that really feels true. Those early albums of people like Taylor Swift and Lady Gaga or Beyoncé were so formative. There’s still great music being made everywhere, but it doesn’t always hit in the same way because we’re not teenagers anymore. It’s for other teenagers now, and that’s actually such an honour to think maybe there are little girls who heard my first album and are teenagers now for this one, and maybe they could imprint on it. That would be so nice.
Indiespect: This is a bit off topic, but your mother is also releasing a book and I’m really interested in reading it. Is there already a title?
Freya Ridings: Yes, it’s so good! I’m so proud of her. It’s called The Shame Child. The publishers are saying it might even come out around the same time as my album now, because it got pushed back in the publishing queue. She was writing her book, which is set in ancient Ireland, at the same time that I was writing this album. We talk a lot about stories, and she helps me edit my songs sometimes. So the two worlds did kind of come together in a really cosmic way. It’s almost like my album became the soundtrack to her book.
«Wicker Woman» could be the soundtrack to the book «The Shame Child» by freya's mother.
Indiespect: When I was preparing for this interview, I had the feeling that because you are so honest and open, you have to talk about your feelings all the time - in your songs and then again in interviews. Does that ever get frustrating? Do you ever want to talk about something more uplifting?
Freya Ridings: No, no, I love it. My whole life is really turning big feelings into music and then into connection. That’s what I’ve dedicated my entire life to since I was 11. I haven’t really done anything else. I’m really proud of it, and it’s lovely to talk about.
We didn’t have anyone on our side. Nobody thought it would go as well as it did.
Indiespect: When your debut album was released, you were 25. And it was a huge success. Did you already feel pressure back then, or did it still just feel like a nice thing to have?
Freya Ridings: It actually felt more like the end of a really huge chapter. The album came out in 2019, but I got signed and started making it in 2016, and I’d written Lost Without You in 2013. So for me it was the end of a six-year sprint. I put my blinkers on and just ran towards the idea of getting to release an album. We even did two live albums before then. So it felt like building an artist career, and then it became something bigger than I’d thought it would. Even now, I feel I’m still getting to do this stuff because of the music from my first album. A lot of that I wrote completely on my own, so it was really beautiful to see that authenticity translate. And the little team I made it with – the little indie team – it felt very guerrilla, like us against the world. We didn’t have anyone on our side. Nobody thought it would go as well as it did, which I’m still really proud of. When the album was released it was kind of almost like the end of the finish line, it wasn’t the beginning. And honestly, doing shows in Germany and Switzerland were some of the first moments where I really felt like I had a following - like I had fans. I came back to the UK with more confidence because I was like, I can do this, people love it in Germany and Switzerland.
Started making music when she was 11: Freya Ridings
Indiespect: But did that success also have an impact on the second record because of the pressure you had?
Freya Ridings: That was never the fans’ fault. That was my old label boss getting a bit mad and standing behind the mixing desk thinking I should be disco and I was like, I don’t think I should be disco. And he was like, you should, it would be good. And it’s still that thing with Blood Orange where, like, Weekends to me is a very different thing – I love the song, I hate the production. The rest of the album I love – it’s great and I’m really, truly proud of it. But I didn’t really have a label to help me do it. It made me realise how much that little guerrilla team on the first album meant to me. I really loved working with a team and that’s the thing I learnt. Not having that on the second album made me realise that on the third album I wanted a proper team again, people that I trust and love. It took me a while to rebuild that from the ground up, but we finally got there and it feels really good now.
At the end of the day it’s my face, my name, my music. So, it should be authentic to me.
Indiespect: Would you be allowed to release a revisited version of «Weekends», or would that become a legal problem?
Freya Ridings: I don’t know exactly how long it is until you can re-record things, I think it might be something like ten years. But I’ve done my own live versions of the song. Even the version we did on The Graham Norton Show was a lot more live and real – we had brass on it – and that brought it back for me a bit, like saving it. But for me the main lesson was: you have to stick to your guns, you have to be authentic. There is just no point otherwise. And also, they do not know better than you. They think they know better than you, but they do not know better than you. At the end of the day it’s my face, my name, my music. So, it should be authentic to me.